The Orion Team. discussion
CONVENTIONS OF SPYING
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RELEVANT ORGANS: A handy guide to the PRC intelligence community.
China has a long history of spying. They wrote the book on it in Sun Tzu's "The Art Of War". But the modern PRC intelligence community was set up in 1939.
The organization was innocently called the Central Department of Social Affairs. Sounds benign? Well the man running it wasn't. His name was Kang Sheng, the first spymaster for the communist Chinese. Totally cut-throat, extra-ordinarily unpleasant and highly competent at his job, managing to successfully develop assets and persevere in a battle of wits between the better funded and equally ruthless Nationalist Military Statistic Bureau under General Dai Li, his Guomindang adversary.
(A conspiracy theory has it that Kang Sheng's assets managed to bribe the pilot of Dai Li's plane. A convenient plane crash resulted.)
The organization was innocently called the Central Department of Social Affairs. Sounds benign? Well the man running it wasn't. His name was Kang Sheng, the first spymaster for the communist Chinese. Totally cut-throat, extra-ordinarily unpleasant and highly competent at his job, managing to successfully develop assets and persevere in a battle of wits between the better funded and equally ruthless Nationalist Military Statistic Bureau under General Dai Li, his Guomindang adversary.
(A conspiracy theory has it that Kang Sheng's assets managed to bribe the pilot of Dai Li's plane. A convenient plane crash resulted.)
After the Chinese Civil War, the PRC intel community was in a state of flux. The Ministry of Public Security dealt with domestic matters while foreign intelligence was taken care of jointly by the intelligence department of the central military commission and the Central Investigative Department.
These organizations ran operations from Paris, to Bolivia and most critically, Africa. There, the PRC operatives got themselves into a war of sorts between the CIA and Mossad who frustrated their efforts at inciting revolutions that would be favorable to China.
These organizations ran operations from Paris, to Bolivia and most critically, Africa. There, the PRC operatives got themselves into a war of sorts between the CIA and Mossad who frustrated their efforts at inciting revolutions that would be favorable to China.
We now cut to 1983. The CID and Ministry Of Public Security have certain departments and powers removed from each. The former was even dissolved. The monstrosity that resulted is the present day Ministry Of State Security or Guójiā ?nquánbù.
So, now like my FSB/SVR thread, here's a brief and handy guide to help find your way around the PRC intelligence community.
MSS =[中华人民共和国国家安全部]=
Zhōnghuá Rénmín Gònghéguó Guójiā ?nquánbù:
They need no introduction. They deal with foreign intelligence and the liquidation of domestic enemies of the CCP. In that sense, they're similar to the KGB due to having the whole widget of responsibilities rather than being divided like the CIA and FBI or SVR and FSB as the case may be. Their primary directive according to one of their officers who defected is "to control the Chinese people to maintain the rule of the Communist Party". And to do so, with the PRC's economic boom they have amassed significant resources for the execution of their duties. These include the Axiom group, a hacktivist cell which boasts superior capabilities than those run by the PLA.
MPS =[中华人民共和国公安部]=
Zhōnghuá Rénmín Gònghéguó Gōng'ānbù:
Ministry of public security. These guys run the national police of China. They don't gather intelligence or run counter-intelligence. Think of them as the FBI, if the FBI had its teeth and claws ripped out. They administer china's municipal police, command the People's Armed Police and provide manpower when the MSS calls upon for extra muscle when they need to hunt domestic targets. Both organizations pool and share domestic resources and in some ways, the MSS has a degree of control over its lesser sibling. The MPS also isn't lacking with cool toys.
Benefits of the 2008 Olympics in their view was that it allowed them to spend the hell out of a modern security camera network. There are more than 7 million security cameras in Beijing and last year, they managed to achieve complete, city-wide saturation. No escape. No place to hide from the facial recognition software they're all wired up to.
Fiction authors are going to bewail and mourn the fact that Beijing is now a death trap if they try to send their fictional heroes into the forbidden city undercover.
Second Directorate:
Military Intelligence, China's very own DIA or GRU, these are the people who gather intelligence for the PLA, such as monitoring the US strategic pivot, capabilities of say, Vietnam or what potential threats are there to the land reclamation projects the PLA is building in the South China Sea.
They also do a roaring trade in industrial/military espionage and have been suspected to have made off with gold nuggets such as American UAV technology and plans to jump start the PRC's own highly successful UAV sector.
Third and Fourth Directorates:
China's very own NSA, but belonging to the People's Liberation Army. These are the official geeks, hackers and I.T people for the PRC intelligence community (although as mentioned above the MSS have access to their own set) and the fourth directorate controls the infamous Unit 61398.
SIGINT is their bread and butter of the third directorate region, so they run the ELINT monitoring stations targeting Japan, the ROK, the DPRK, Taiwan, probably the ASEAN group and they even have a few facilities up north on the Siberian-Manchurian border to check on their erstwhile Russian allies.
ASIDE NOTE:
As far as I know, the more serious paramilitary duties are not handled by the MSS which (OFFICIALLY) does not maintain a dedicated paramilitary unit like the USA, Russia or Israel (and if they did, they would probably leave it off the organizational chart). They are the purview of the PLA SOF teams. In that sense, they're like the UK SIS who let the SAS and SBS take the lead with the gritty direction action stuff, rather than maintaining a dedicated unit like the CIA and SVR.
MSS =[中华人民共和国国家安全部]=
Zhōnghuá Rénmín Gònghéguó Guójiā ?nquánbù:
They need no introduction. They deal with foreign intelligence and the liquidation of domestic enemies of the CCP. In that sense, they're similar to the KGB due to having the whole widget of responsibilities rather than being divided like the CIA and FBI or SVR and FSB as the case may be. Their primary directive according to one of their officers who defected is "to control the Chinese people to maintain the rule of the Communist Party". And to do so, with the PRC's economic boom they have amassed significant resources for the execution of their duties. These include the Axiom group, a hacktivist cell which boasts superior capabilities than those run by the PLA.
MPS =[中华人民共和国公安部]=
Zhōnghuá Rénmín Gònghéguó Gōng'ānbù:
Ministry of public security. These guys run the national police of China. They don't gather intelligence or run counter-intelligence. Think of them as the FBI, if the FBI had its teeth and claws ripped out. They administer china's municipal police, command the People's Armed Police and provide manpower when the MSS calls upon for extra muscle when they need to hunt domestic targets. Both organizations pool and share domestic resources and in some ways, the MSS has a degree of control over its lesser sibling. The MPS also isn't lacking with cool toys.
Benefits of the 2008 Olympics in their view was that it allowed them to spend the hell out of a modern security camera network. There are more than 7 million security cameras in Beijing and last year, they managed to achieve complete, city-wide saturation. No escape. No place to hide from the facial recognition software they're all wired up to.
Fiction authors are going to bewail and mourn the fact that Beijing is now a death trap if they try to send their fictional heroes into the forbidden city undercover.
Second Directorate:
Military Intelligence, China's very own DIA or GRU, these are the people who gather intelligence for the PLA, such as monitoring the US strategic pivot, capabilities of say, Vietnam or what potential threats are there to the land reclamation projects the PLA is building in the South China Sea.
They also do a roaring trade in industrial/military espionage and have been suspected to have made off with gold nuggets such as American UAV technology and plans to jump start the PRC's own highly successful UAV sector.
Third and Fourth Directorates:
China's very own NSA, but belonging to the People's Liberation Army. These are the official geeks, hackers and I.T people for the PRC intelligence community (although as mentioned above the MSS have access to their own set) and the fourth directorate controls the infamous Unit 61398.
SIGINT is their bread and butter of the third directorate region, so they run the ELINT monitoring stations targeting Japan, the ROK, the DPRK, Taiwan, probably the ASEAN group and they even have a few facilities up north on the Siberian-Manchurian border to check on their erstwhile Russian allies.
ASIDE NOTE:
As far as I know, the more serious paramilitary duties are not handled by the MSS which (OFFICIALLY) does not maintain a dedicated paramilitary unit like the USA, Russia or Israel (and if they did, they would probably leave it off the organizational chart). They are the purview of the PLA SOF teams. In that sense, they're like the UK SIS who let the SAS and SBS take the lead with the gritty direction action stuff, rather than maintaining a dedicated unit like the CIA and SVR.
So, if any group member who happens to be writing something needs a place to start with the PRC intelligence services, feel free to use what I've typed up in this thread.
Samuel wrote: "So, if any group member who happens to be writing something needs a place to start with the PRC intelligence services, feel free to use what I've typed up in this thread."
Also, look at the handy guide to the Russian Federation Intelligence services! It's the thread that inspired this one.
/topic/show/...
Also, look at the handy guide to the Russian Federation Intelligence services! It's the thread that inspired this one.
/topic/show/...

And chalk up another reason why I need to get cracking on reading and reviewing A.P. 4. I'm thinking of ordering a physical paperback copy this time around.


My two personal favorite spy novels focusing on China.
The first involves the MSS/MPS running a counter-intelligence operation against an escaped UK SIS asset and breaking out their terrifying surveillance and cyberwarfare capabilities onto the streets of Beijing that I mentioned in the previous post.
The second book features the Second Directorate attempting to find a use for one of their best assets in the CIA who is now compromised. Spoiler: they throw him under the bus, but not for the purpose you might initially think.
For those writers who are members of this group, here's a useful paper detailing current PRC domestic security tactics and policy.
Thanks for this discussion. It's rare to find information about MSS and its brethren. I will check out some of the novels suggested above.
Jame wrote: "Thanks for this discussion. It's rare to find information about MSS and its brethren. I will check out some of the novels suggested above."
I particularly recommend Night Heron and the Ghost War.
One is about the PRC intel communities nightmarish cyberwarfare and surveillance capabilities applied to a manhunt for two burned out SIS assets whom China's top spymasters do not wish to leave the Mainland alive.
The second involves the Defense Minister of the PRC utilizing his control over the PLA second directorate to conduct an operation behind the backs of his fellow standing committee members, the aim of said op is to ultimately destroy them all and allow him to take over China unopposed.
Both are fantastic. The Ghost War was the first post 9/11 spy novel to give a quality focus on the PRC and its geopolitical rise while "Night Heron", exposes their sophisticated capabilities. Gone are the days of brute force and numbers. Instead, they have the equivalent of a high-tech digital magnifying glass designed to burn anyone they're watching.
I particularly recommend Night Heron and the Ghost War.
One is about the PRC intel communities nightmarish cyberwarfare and surveillance capabilities applied to a manhunt for two burned out SIS assets whom China's top spymasters do not wish to leave the Mainland alive.
The second involves the Defense Minister of the PRC utilizing his control over the PLA second directorate to conduct an operation behind the backs of his fellow standing committee members, the aim of said op is to ultimately destroy them all and allow him to take over China unopposed.
Both are fantastic. The Ghost War was the first post 9/11 spy novel to give a quality focus on the PRC and its geopolitical rise while "Night Heron", exposes their sophisticated capabilities. Gone are the days of brute force and numbers. Instead, they have the equivalent of a high-tech digital magnifying glass designed to burn anyone they're watching.
Thanks Samuel for the tips and your explanations.
Jame wrote: "Thanks Samuel for the tips and your explanations."
Ah, Hi again. One last recommendation. This one's been written by a fellow group member. It's a story set in the warm geopolitically hot spot that is the South China Sea.
The main antagonist is a PLA Navy office who has stolen a frigate and set up a fiefdom that he rules with an iron fist. But the real star of the show (along the an American team of mercenary soldiers) is the PLA SOF units directed by the 2nd Directorate. Closet thing China has to a dedicated paramilitary capability and the author gives them as accurate a portrayal as he can manage.
I'm reading it now. Going great so far.

Ah, Hi again. One last recommendation. This one's been written by a fellow group member. It's a story set in the warm geopolitically hot spot that is the South China Sea.
The main antagonist is a PLA Navy office who has stolen a frigate and set up a fiefdom that he rules with an iron fist. But the real star of the show (along the an American team of mercenary soldiers) is the PLA SOF units directed by the 2nd Directorate. Closet thing China has to a dedicated paramilitary capability and the author gives them as accurate a portrayal as he can manage.
I'm reading it now. Going great so far.


Ah, Hi again. One last recommendation. This one's been written by a fellow group member. It's a sto..."
Emphasis on "as accurate as [I] can manage." There's actually a fair bit of guesswork invovled; not a lot of detail about how such units (or any units) in the PLA operate that makes it out of China.
Yes, very true. No Andy McNabs or Chris Kyles will come out of the PLA SOF anytime soon with a tell-all book. The Central Military Commission will see to that with the old "9 grams treatment" or prison time.....



Another great spy series which stars the Ministry Of State Security is "The Tourist" trilogy by Olen Steinhauer. It's a great saga about a fictional paramilitary black op unit of the CIA executing a false flag operation to destroy Chinese influence in the Sudan.
Said false flag operation leads to the death of multiple Chinese overseas workers. One of those workers is the son of a spymaster who happens to be the one of the most powerful men in the MSS and runs their small but efficient paramilitary unit. And he is not happy when he discovers who helped butcher is only child.
So the man comes up with a scheme that is implemented in the first book and executed in the second. I consider it to be one of the greatest operations to every feature in spy fiction. The end result, is jaw dropping in its brilliance and brutality and is the sort of thing you wouldn't normally find in the counter-terrorist/run and gun side of spy fiction. Basically the MSS man kills an entire government department with cellphones. But not in the way you might think.
But I digress. I recommend these three books very much.
Samuel wrote: "
Another great spy series which stars the Ministry Of State Security is "The Tourist" t..."
Thanks - on my Kindle...



Another great spy series which stars the Ministry Of State Security is "The Tourist" t..."
Thanks - on my Kindle...
Jame wrote: "Samuel wrote: "
Another great spy series which stars the Ministry Of State Security is ..."
Book 1 is average but book 2 and 3 are superb. They go the John Le Carre/Daniel Silva route of slower pace, punctuated by short but shockingly intense acts of violence and psychological brutality.



Another great spy series which stars the Ministry Of State Security is ..."
Book 1 is average but book 2 and 3 are superb. They go the John Le Carre/Daniel Silva route of slower pace, punctuated by short but shockingly intense acts of violence and psychological brutality.

Another book involving the PRC, albeit one where the CCP got overthrown by the PLA and China is ruled by a classic military Junta. The Second Directorate and MSS play a big part and one of the main viewpoint characters is a female government assassin run by them.
I read The Tourist and thought it was terrific. At some point I'll check out more of Stenhauer's work. Thanks Samuel for the recommendation.
Here's my review:
Here's my review:
Jame wrote: "I read The Tourist and thought it was terrific. At some point I'll check out more of Stenhauer's work. Thanks Samuel for the recommendation.
Here's my review:
..."
Awesome review man.
Here's my review:
..."
Awesome review man.

Recently downloaded this.
The plot concerns the director of the PLA Second Directorate mounting a campaign of revenge against one of the most powerful families in China for a past injustice its patriarch inflicted upon him.
In the middle is a journalist and asset of UK SIS whom the Second Directorate believes has a role to play in the scheme he's running.
I'm wondering what countries intelligence services should I do next?
I'm thinking either France, Iran or Pakistan. Thread will probably be posted in 2017.
I'm thinking either France, Iran or Pakistan. Thread will probably be posted in 2017.
Samuel wrote: "I'm wondering what countries intelligence services should I do next?
I'm thinking either France, Iran or Pakistan. Thread will probably be posted in 2017."
Leaning towards Pakistan.....France can wait.
I'm thinking either France, Iran or Pakistan. Thread will probably be posted in 2017."
Leaning towards Pakistan.....France can wait.
Samuel wrote: "
Recently downloaded this.
The plot concerns the director of the PLA Second Directorate mounting a campaign of revenge against one of the most powerful families in ..."
Finished this book. Stolen the title of best spy novel focusing on China in my humble opinion. Impressively researched and one of the currently few deep explorations into the power dynamics of the politicians that rule contemporary China.

Recently downloaded this.
The plot concerns the director of the PLA Second Directorate mounting a campaign of revenge against one of the most powerful families in ..."
Finished this book. Stolen the title of best spy novel focusing on China in my humble opinion. Impressively researched and one of the currently few deep explorations into the power dynamics of the politicians that rule contemporary China.


Two interesting new military thrillers focusing on China's equivalent to GSG9, the Snow Leopard Commando Unit. Biological warfare and the MSS also play a part.
Samuel wrote: "Samuel wrote: "
Recently downloaded this.
The plot concerns the director of the PLA Second Directorate mounting a campaign of revenge against one of the most powerf..."
Back to this book. It's a scheme by the director of PLA Second Directorate to get even with a man who wronged him. Said vendetta however is deemed destabilizing by the UK SIS who work to stop it by alerting the MSS.

Recently downloaded this.
The plot concerns the director of the PLA Second Directorate mounting a campaign of revenge against one of the most powerf..."
Back to this book. It's a scheme by the director of PLA Second Directorate to get even with a man who wronged him. Said vendetta however is deemed destabilizing by the UK SIS who work to stop it by alerting the MSS.
Samuel wrote: "
One of our group members has released something special........"
From Hong Kong to Beijing and Shanghai, An American government assassin lands in the middle of a intelligence war between the PRC and USA when attempting to rescue a young man that's stuck in the middle.

One of our group members has released something special........"
From Hong Kong to Beijing and Shanghai, An American government assassin lands in the middle of a intelligence war between the PRC and USA when attempting to rescue a young man that's stuck in the middle.

I do not know who in the General Staff signed off on the following documentary but thanks to them, group members here now have a chance to check out footage of the PLA SOF in AN ENGLISH LANGUAGE DOCUMENTARY. Take the opportunity and watch.
Samuel wrote: "
I do not know who in the General Staff signed off on the following documentary but thanks to them, group members here now have a chance to check out footage of the..."
I'm still astounded that an actual documentary on the contemporary PLA SOF exists......watch it while you still can because youtube is a tempermental beast, especially with the copy right take down arms race.

I do not know who in the General Staff signed off on the following documentary but thanks to them, group members here now have a chance to check out footage of the..."
I'm still astounded that an actual documentary on the contemporary PLA SOF exists......watch it while you still can because youtube is a tempermental beast, especially with the copy right take down arms race.

Oh, well. I'm sure we'll see Chinese troops again...
Peter wrote: "Kinda wish that had been up a year ago. It could have been useful for Kill Yuan.
Oh, well. I'm sure we'll see Chinese troops again..."
Well they do seem to be trying a good cop approach this time round but I agree, if that doesn't pan out, the real life equivalents of Mr Feng are going to get the call from Zhongnanhai and the Second Directorate to start evicting people from the disputed regions.
Oh, well. I'm sure we'll see Chinese troops again..."
Well they do seem to be trying a good cop approach this time round but I agree, if that doesn't pan out, the real life equivalents of Mr Feng are going to get the call from Zhongnanhai and the Second Directorate to start evicting people from the disputed regions.
Renamed this thread. Relevant Organs is a reference to what Communist spies called the departments of the domestic security/foreign intelligence services they work for and it's also a shout out to the best satirical twitter account focusing on the PRC ;))

Taken a further dive into this. The reviews by group members were not kidding. It's a technical manual with a slightly soulless military thriller story crudely stapled on. That being said, the PRC in this book is pretty impressive.....
Samuel wrote: "
Taken a further dive into this. The reviews by group members were not kidding. It's a technical manual with a slightly soulless mil..."
Not to mention the Chinese intelligence community in this book. They're packing gadgets that would make "Q" murderous with envy.

Taken a further dive into this. The reviews by group members were not kidding. It's a technical manual with a slightly soulless mil..."
Not to mention the Chinese intelligence community in this book. They're packing gadgets that would make "Q" murderous with envy.
Interesting project possibly conducted by the Third Directorate, or at the very least the information gathered is sent to the Third Directorate.
Samuel wrote: "
One of our group members has released something special........"
And we have the final leg of a journey..........

One of our group members has released something special........"
And we have the final leg of a journey..........

Finally getting into this. Quite possibly the most enjoyable indie spy thriller set in modern China written this decade. Set in the backdrop of covert wars between the NSA, PLA cyberwarfare units and the MSS, it follows a former government assassin journeying through the fascinating landscape of Modern China to fulfill the last request of a friend who gave up his tomorrow so that the assassin could live.
Today Is Chinese New Year so I would like to give my list of the best 21st century spy/military thrillers focusing on Modern China.
The original one. Gone are the Cold War era tropes and portrayal. In its place is a complex portrait of a country on the rise and a far more sophisticated and deadly opponent that it was in the Mao Era.
A book that also takes the time and effort to explore Modern China's strengths and weaknesses. Greaney also explores the Achilles heels of the rising power, particularly the economic debt problem that might just trip up the PRC in real life.
Set in the backdrop of the current South China Sea dispute, it involves a group of American mercenaries going up against the PLA SOF. An excellent portrayal of the PLA's cream of the crop that doesn't go over the top, nor does it transform them into a Kalashnikov wielding mob.
A book that presents a highly nuanced portrayal of China and its intelligence community. Focusing on the MSS conducting a man hunt for a jailbird who could burn one of the most important black ops the PRC is being run, it's realistic to a chilling degree.
The sequel to Night Heron and a book which focuses on the internal power plays and wars between the men and women who rule Modern China. Features the director of PLA Second Directorate conducting a personal vendetta that might just cause a civil war.
Currently reading this. If Ian Fleming was alive today and wrote a book about Modern China, it would probably be a bit like Andrew Warren's second book. Action packed escapism perfectly blended with diligently researched detail and a seductive, intrigue filled atmosphere.
The Tourist Trilogy involves a war between the CIA and the director of the small but well trained paramilitary division of the MSS. In the first book, the main protagonist starts a false flag operation in Sudan that leads to the violent death of multiple Chinese overseas workers. In the second book, his department is brought down by cellphones. In the third book, the MSS man is faced with what is a fate worse than death.

The original one. Gone are the Cold War era tropes and portrayal. In its place is a complex portrait of a country on the rise and a far more sophisticated and deadly opponent that it was in the Mao Era.

A book that also takes the time and effort to explore Modern China's strengths and weaknesses. Greaney also explores the Achilles heels of the rising power, particularly the economic debt problem that might just trip up the PRC in real life.

Set in the backdrop of the current South China Sea dispute, it involves a group of American mercenaries going up against the PLA SOF. An excellent portrayal of the PLA's cream of the crop that doesn't go over the top, nor does it transform them into a Kalashnikov wielding mob.

A book that presents a highly nuanced portrayal of China and its intelligence community. Focusing on the MSS conducting a man hunt for a jailbird who could burn one of the most important black ops the PRC is being run, it's realistic to a chilling degree.

The sequel to Night Heron and a book which focuses on the internal power plays and wars between the men and women who rule Modern China. Features the director of PLA Second Directorate conducting a personal vendetta that might just cause a civil war.

Currently reading this. If Ian Fleming was alive today and wrote a book about Modern China, it would probably be a bit like Andrew Warren's second book. Action packed escapism perfectly blended with diligently researched detail and a seductive, intrigue filled atmosphere.



The Tourist Trilogy involves a war between the CIA and the director of the small but well trained paramilitary division of the MSS. In the first book, the main protagonist starts a false flag operation in Sudan that leads to the violent death of multiple Chinese overseas workers. In the second book, his department is brought down by cellphones. In the third book, the MSS man is faced with what is a fate worse than death.

Finished this. Good book. PLA Second and Third Directorates go to war against the Russians with an American assassin stuck in the middle.
Books mentioned in this topic
The Last Sword Maker (other topics)The Spy's Daughter (other topics)
Night Heron (other topics)
Spy Games (other topics)
Night Heron (other topics)
More...
( /topic/show/... )
The People's Republic Of China. Prosperous and increasingly powerful it and its people are in a much better place than it was back in the 1960's where it was effectively a super-sized clone of the current DPRK, the hell hole to end all hell holes.
However, for all the spit, polish and refinement, one must always bear in mind that the PRC still are the most sophisticated autocratic state in existence today. Not the most brutal, that crown goes to the DPRK with their nightmarish internment camps. But Mainland China is at the cutting edge of total control, developing and using perhaps the best funded security apparatus on the planet
Lets take a tour shall we of the 'relevant organs' and how the Mainland Chinese regime utilizes them.