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I found the reference where White points out Lincoln's enemies used the fact that he hasn't joined a church to suggest he was not religious. It was during the time when he was running for a seat on the U.S. House of Representatives for the first time, and it's on page 122 and 123.

I thought I remembered reading a different passage than this one, but White does make the same point.

Here is something from Ronald White's website on The Eloquent President:

Ronald C. White Jr.

Anyway here is a quote worth noting:

As he weighs the biblical cadences and vigorous parallel structures that make Lincoln’s rhetoric soar, White identifies a passionate religious strain that most historians have overlooked. It is White’s contention that as president Lincoln not only grew into an inspiring leader and determined commander in chief, but also embarked on a spiritual odyssey that led to a profound understanding of the relationship between human action and divine will.

White seems to be of the mind that Lincoln developed a deepening spiritual conviction as time went on.

Here is Abraham Lincoln's Journey of Faith: (Speaker: Ronald C. White)

One thing that was fascinating was the fact that Abe tried his hand at writing an autobiographical essay. However he referred to himself as either A. or as it progressed Mr. L. Despite everything I hear, I see this man as being tremendously odd.

Tracing his heritage from England and a family of Puritans in the Massachusetts Bay Colony - his great great grandfather certainly was well heeled and the family fortunes seemed very good. There seemed to be an intermarriage with Quakers and finally his father's family were Baptists. Along the way, it appeared to me that his family always belonged to a church. I am uncertain why White spent time describing the three different sects of Baptists - the General who believed in free will, the Particulars who were basically Calvinists, and the Separates who were more experiential.

I guess that was more than I needed to know about the Baptist church at that time; but maybe there was something to be learned from this explanation that would play a part later on. The only point that White seemed to emphasize was the church's resistance to the notion of slavery.

I have to agree with James that Lincoln probably would have been very pleased to know of his ancestry. They all for the most part seemed to be a family of merit and of some distinction who with the assassination of the grandfather fell on some hard times. It was interesting that Lincoln tried to find out more about his ancestry so he definately had a yearning to understand his heritage.

Bentley wrote: "One thing that was fascinating was the fact that Abe tried his hand at writing an autobiographical essay. However he referred to himself as either A. or as it progressed Mr. L. Despite everything ..."

There is one comment that I think should be mentioned about Lincoln and his autobiography. Numerous people had requested that he write something to help the public better understand his background, just to get to know him better as he was getting more popular nation-wide, but he was very reluctant. He eventually was persuaded to write something, but what he did write was extremely short, and the events very selective. What Lincoln didn't include in his autobiography tells almost as much as the events that he did include.

Yes, the above is true..and there was great reluctance on his part to discuss his youth. There were obviously some painful parts of his past.

I agree, it will be interesting to see how his views develop. We can say that religious morals were very important to Lincoln and to Victorian society.

At this time, you wonder too about the Great Awakenings where you actually see a democratization of religion where lay preachers are building an authority over organized churches. I don't know if White brings this up in his other works. It was becoming a little more tolerated to be religious without a church, but I think social stigmas are tough to break down, and any "dirt" Lincoln's foes could find was useful.

Jefferson was called an atheist because he did not belong to a church and his views were more in line with the Enlightenment. However, he believed in God and went to church on occasion, even spend a lot of money to help churches build their buildings. So, I think religion is an effective campaign tool against your rival.

Bentley wrote: "I guess that was more than I needed to know about the Baptist church at that time; but maybe there was something to be learned from this explanation that would play a part later on. The only point that White seemed to emphasize was the church's resistance to the notion of slavery."

I think the main point White wants us to take away from his descriptions of the break-up of the Lincoln family church was to emphasize that the environment Lincoln grew up in was fundamentally torn because of the slavery issue. And to also recognize that Kentucky remained neutral throughout Lincoln's life says volumes about the tensions and volatility from both sides of the slavery issue in that state.

Bryan wrote: "I agree, it will be interesting to see how his views develop. We can say that religious morals were very important to Lincoln and to Victorian society.

At this time, you wonder too about the Grea..."

Bryan, you bring up some great points. And it seems that Jefferson though I guess he was considered a Deist by some..did have the social wherewithal to make peace with the churches, help build a few buildings and seek them out on occasion.

Religion was and I think to a certain extent still is an effective campaign tool whether the issues are discussed overtly or covertly. This still seems to come up doesn't it and has over many many years: Catholicism (Kennedy), the Evangelicals, Mitt Romney's candidacy, Huckabee's beliefs, Bush's leanings towards the right. Reverand Wright and President Obama. Where the candidates and/or Presidents worship and the beliefs of their churches always seems to come up. Maybe because folks all of these years later are still concerned about the separation of church and state....hard to tell what the motivation is anymore.

Joe wrote: "Bentley wrote: "I guess that was more than I needed to know about the Baptist church at that time; but maybe there was something to be learned from this explanation that would play a part later on...."

Yes, it appears that Kentucky was not solidly on the Southern side concerning the right to own slaves...if the Lincoln's church was any sort of an example of the tensions within regarding this sordid issue.

I was just watching a rerun of West Wing that I had and very often a great analogy comes up to something we are discussing here. The English ambassador was making some point to Tobey and their conversation veered to every country's stain so to speak. He said that England's was Ireland and that our Original Sin was slavery and the Native Americans.

Interesting concept I thought while watching it. Attaching a religious symbol to the emotional connotation that was slavery.

I was looking at some of the books that White indicated influenced young Lincoln and these are the ones which White said Lincoln read:

Aesop's Fables with its morals
Robinson Crusoe
Arabian Nights
William Scott's - Lessons in Elocution
Noah Webster's - American Spelling Book
King James Bible
John Bunyan's - Pilgrims Progress
William Grimshaw's - History of the United States
DePuis's Hymnal

I tried to see which ones might have been on goodreads and I found most; but not all.

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History Of The United States by William Grimshaw

I think White went a little overboard with conjecture about the morals that Lincoln might have gained from Aesop's Fables; but I guess who is to know.

Lincoln's keeping a copy book was interesting; always writing down passages he wanted to memorize or to remember in some way. Also his practicing preaching after going to church with his family and his father stopping him from doing it; also the fact that he did not join the church and become a member as the remainder of his family had done. Obviously meaningful and White intimated as much.

Some other things that I was thinking about in Chapter Three:

* It was really expensive for the Lincolns to pay to cross the river with their wagon and horses when they went to Indiana - one whole dollar. Think of it..Abe Lincoln for a full day of rail splitting years later only made 25 cents for the entire day. It would have cost four days of hard labor to pay for crossing the river!

* I thought the description of Indiana to be interesting - all forest and bigger than England. Thomas Lincoln for some reason conjures up in my mind a Huck Finn and/or Tom Sawyer type. We discover that he moved his family four times basically into a wilderness. It must have been tough if the last sixteen miles to their new home (which was to be built on Congress land) that Thomas had to beat through the thicket and fell trees to even get to their new home!

* An ax cost $5.00 (now that was an expensive item too and much revered)

* White really laid out the case that Lincoln was judging his father and his father obviously did not measure up. Lincoln also seemed to covet other fathers and their interests in their sons. And that when Lincoln was ten there was an unbinding that was taking place between father and son. Lincoln's description of his father as an uneducated man is telling (statement to Solomon Lincoln of Massachusetts). I also personally think he blamed his father for placing his family in the situation where his mother and the Sparrows died. And that all of them had faced ejectment suits.

* It is possible that his step mother Sarah saved him and was responsible for his being able to go to school in the first place.







"Lincoln attended to her welfare as much as he could from a distance. When Thomas died in 1851, Lincoln retained a 40-acre plot of land in his own name "for Mother while she lives."

Bentley wrote: "What struck me about the book you recommended is that it clearly discusses a question that White poses at the beginning of the book. "What did Lincoln really believe about slavery?" I asked mysel..."

It is clear that Lincoln's views on slavery evolved with time. What makes him such a great man is that he seemed to be always one step ahead and leading the way. His views were based on his experience, his observations. I think what made him really understand that blacks were true equals was meeting and talking to Frederick Douglas, a man with much more education than himself. Lincoln was always sensitive to a persons education. Now that must have been a powerful meeting. I wish i could have been there to see Lincoln's 'ah ha' moment.

I understand your view James....I don't know if he was one step ahead all of the time...he did happen to be on the right side of that issue though.

The point about Frederick Douglas is well taken.

Yes, that meeting would have been quite something.

Lincoln's views on slavery, i.e., his views on how to handle the slavery issue in the political context he found himself in, did evolve over time. But his view on the singular, ultimate question of whether slavery was moral or not did not change. Do you agree with that, James?

Neil makes a good point. I recall in a later chapter that Lincoln writes to an old friend around 1856 recalling the sick feeling he had seeing slaves on the Ohio & Mississippi River when he was a young man taking the trip to New Orleans, which tells me that his moral compass towards slavery did not change over time.

There are two issues for political parties: 1. is slavery wrong? 2. If yes, how to deal with it. On number 2, I think Lincoln's thinking evolves.

Interesting discussion guys...not being a Lincoln enthusiast as all of you are..it is really great seeing the other perspective.

I agree, Bryan.

I personally have come to the conclusion that Lincoln's personal views on slavery basically did not change throughout his lifetime. But what did change was how he decided to talk about it publicly and politically. I seem to think that Lincoln knew what to say in certain circumstances to advance his cause.

He knew he wouldn't have gotten elected if he came right out and said he was going to free the slaves, but he always was consistent on not giving up any ground.

I also don't think that Lincoln knew beforehand that he was going to free the slaves. When he came to the realisation that freeing the slaves was essential to the Union cause, he took advantage of the situation the South put him in.

If anyone is still commenting on this . . . I found the story about him killing the wild turkey interesting. I come from an area where gun and bow hunting is very big and a right of passage for many children (especially boys). Why did Lincoln feel the need to include that story in an autobiography where he left so much out? If he was making a moral statement I find it interesting that it wasn't as if he referenced his revered books which supported his finding (a fable from Aesop or the Bible). What did he feel that revealed about himself that was politically advantageous or essential to his personality?

And yet he did not say why he did not join his church with the rest of the family?

Niki

Niki...you raise some interesting points. Lincoln was obviously so ashamed of so much of his past that from my viewpoint he was just trying to shut it out. Maybe the story was just a cover up for everything he did not want to be pressured to reveal.

Some of what he chose to reveal is very curious. I think any church his father joined would be one he would find objectionable.

Neil wrote: "Lincoln's views on slavery, i.e., his views on how to handle the slavery issue in the political context he found himself in, did evolve over time. ..But his view on the singular, ultimate question of whether slavery was moral or not did not change. Do you agree with that, James?"

Sorry i missed this earlier... Yes I believe he felt from very early on that slavery was wrong. That was a family value that he grew up with and he witness the cruelty of slavery first hand. But what should be done about it is really what took him a lifetime to figure out. I think this is the aspect of slavery that evolved in time and with the times.

Thank-you for your post, Niki. And, yes, all threads are open. I would like to encourage anyone who has something to say to post their comments, no matter how old the previous post was.

About your question, I thought that Lincoln was trying to emphasise in his story two things. The first was that of the type of environment he grew up in. Like you said, it is very common for many children to cross over their right of passage, and he wanted to express that he had done that. But secondly, he was not one who enjoyed hunting, and taking part in that type of behaviour, possibly because of it's violence.

About Lincoln not mentioning that he had joined a church, I thought that Lincoln valued a personal religious experience and didn't think that any outwardly acts, like joining a church, mattered. As far as religion is concerned, Lincoln thought that it was what was inside that counted. It's obvious that Lincoln was a very religious man, and he took his faith seriously. But he also didn't let local customs get in the way with his view of how he should practice his faith. At least, that what I took away from my readings so far.

Joe wrote: "Thank-you for your post, Niki. And, yes, all threads are open. I would like to encourage anyone who has something to say to post their comments, no matter how old the previous post was.

About your..."

So interesting. I wonder what gave him such strength of character that he could break with his family and community. It was not only his father's church (Yes, I can see your point Bentley) but also his stepmother and family as well. And I would imagine a community social institution. It reminds me of when White points out that he saw he was different than others. I agree with the idea of personal faith versus institutional (how very 2000 of you Abe) but then I am struck by how he would repeat the sermons 'almost word for word'. Perhaps only his love of language as White suggests.

Niki

Niki wrote: "I wonder what gave him such strength of character that he could break with his family and community."

I thought that he considered himself unique and didn't fit in (and probably didn't want to), and also felt confident with his own abilities. So much so, that he saw his simple, humble, surroundings, and the people who accepted that environment, and knew that he would leave once his obligations with his family were over. I gather that he knew from a young age that he was not going to live a life as simple as the life his family and community accepted. I'm not convinced that Lincoln was ashamed of his childhood, but he certainly knew that he was gifted in far different ways than most of the people he grew up with. And he knew that he was going to succeed in far different ways than most people in his community could.

Yes, Joe..I think we differ on what we think Lincoln's views of his childhood might have been; but it is for the most part purely conjecture. However, I have found whenever I have had to interview "anybody" that what they leave out and/or omit or when they try to make you detour from your original questioning focus...that I have more than likely stumbled upon something that is embarrassing to them, something that they are ashamed of or not proud of in some way and/or something a bit too painful to discuss. Maybe they believe that you will think less of them if they reveal whatever the details happen to be. I suspect that Lincoln felt this way.

Lincoln grew quite proud of his "own" accomplishments but not those of his family (the one who he grew up with). He probably also felt that the only one who threw him any kind of a lifeline was his step mother.

I am not so sure Niki that it was strength of character on the part of Lincoln or just acute determination on his part to be something that they were not; because at some level he wanted more for himself. And he got it.

Lincoln did have a love of words and these were words that were fitted together for a purpose and I think Lincoln respected the persuasiveness of the words themselves and of the sermons and maybe even felt impressed by the preacher being able to deliver this kind of performance. Lincoln appeared to mock the sermons and I think that is what provoked his father; but I think that this was not the reason for practicing the delivery of what he had heard in church. This was just another avenue for learning and for education that he had available and he took advantage of this situation. You have to admire him for doing this.

I think that wanting to be president in the first place establishes a yearning for a position of power and respect; a lot of our presidential hopefuls are looking for that power; but in Lincoln's case I think he was looking for that ultimate respect of what he had already accomplished as a man.

We do, Bentley, find different conclusions about Lincoln. There is certainly a fundamental difference in our understanding. But what a boring place this would be if we all agreed on everything.

I just wanted to bring up the NYHS exhibit that is going on (New York Historical Society). I felt that the exhibit which showed quite a few original letters written by Lincoln gave you are real feel for the man. I highly recommend it.

One thing that struck me when the letters were examined is that from what I learned it was common practice for one to send out correspondence that had cross outs in it (clearly legible by the way) and not rewrite the letter from scratch. So many of the correspondences actually show you the thinking process for the letter or document itself. It was quite enlightening. And these were not the drafts..but what was actually sent!

There was one letter where Lincoln described what was his major purpose for the country if war was inevitable and that was preservation of the union no matter if there was only one slave freed, many slaves freed or no slaves freed. It was the most revealing document there.

Joe wrote: "We do, Bentley, find different conclusions about Lincoln. There is certainly a fundamental difference in our understanding. But what a boring place this would be if we all agreed on everything."

Probably we are looking at the man from fundamentally different policy viewpoints...I do not doubt your solid understanding of the man or mine for that matter (lol).

During Lincoln's second election only a third of the population of Manhattan voted for him...he was becoming rather unpopular. He only won by the slightest of margins the first time and New York helped put him over the top. Upper New York state loved him for sure. The exhibit did point out (the audio) that the events and timing of his death certainly contributed to a highlighting of his strengths.

This has been a spirited conversation and I think it is great to have different perspectives and frames of reference explored. I certainly agree with you on that.

Bentley wrote: "I just wanted to bring up the NYHS exhibit that is going on (New York Historical Society). I felt that the exhibit which showed quite a few original letters written by Lincoln gave you are real fe..."

That makes sense - it was his duty as president to preserve the union - but slavery - recognized in the original constitution was not in his duty to abolish - only after the passage of the 13 - 14 -165 amendments was that part of his mission - otherwise before that - for the non rebelling states - it was in his mandate to protect it I think

No argument with your assessment Vince.